- Guests' introduction
- Question for Flavia: From your portfolio companies, where have you seen the biggest change in terms of stage of growth, but also thinking about the sectors as well? Where do you see the biggest gaps?
- Question for Neville: In such a market where it's becoming even tougher to fundraise and then half of your money goes into marketing anyway, why should startups look at media for equity?
- Question for Jonathan: What are the advantages of using Consilience as opposed to, for example, doing directly a media for equity deal or doing an equity deal or raising cash from early-stage investors?
- Question for Jonathan: What you are seeing in terms of your portfolio of companies, what do they need most? What is the service that gets traded the most on the platform, apart from probably cash, what other services do they need?
- Question for Flavia: Where do you expect, and what's the next trend, in venture capital? Where do we expect to see the biggest changes? What do you see in your portfolio companies right now? What are the biggest changes happening?
- Question for Neville: Where do you see the next big thing happening? What's the next big opportunity in the media for equity space?
- Question for Jonathan: What's next for Consilience and implicitly for your portfolio companies or companies that would like to raise money and services with Consilience?
Diana: This session is for Series A founders and beyond. However, if you are an investor, I think it's also interesting for you maybe to listen in and participate because some of the funding options that we'll be covering could be a great complimentary option to your fund or perhaps your portfolio companies.
There are loads of alternative funding options out there. Today we'll discuss three particular ones, which are media for equity, media capital, service for equity more broadly, security tokens and venture debt, but a slightly different form of venture than probably the usual venture that you know.
And on that note, I would like to ask my guests to introduce themselves but importantly what your fund does or how your model works. And maybe we can start with Neville.
Neville: Good afternoon. My name is Neville Taraporewalla. I'm the president of the Times Group North America. I lead the strategic investment arm of the largest media group in India based out of the United States. And one of the interesting things that the media company did way back in 2005, was to create a strategic media fund, which invested in early-stage companies to build their brand using media assets in return for equity. And for 15 years, they've been pretty successful. With over 900 investments in India and 2015, we opened an office in Silicon Valley where we are leveraging the US-India corridor, where we are looking at companies which are looking at India as a big market and are looking at getting to India.
And when they get to India being a mass market, they need to use media out there. And the fact is that as a company, we operate the publishing business television business radio, we are across all media platforms. It's a very powerful combination that we offer. We invest off our balance sheet every year.
That's what we do, media for equity, and it's been pretty successful for us. We've got close to 35 investments internationally now going into India. Right at the top of the pyramid, we've got investments in Uber, Coursera, and Airbnb to just talk about it. And then we have growth companies, early-stage companies and we've been pretty successful on that front.
Flavia: I'm Flavia. I'm Chief Commercial Officer for Velocity Group. We have two parts to the fund. The first one is venture capital. We have backed over the past seven years D2C businesses, so new emerging brands from the very early stage to series A.
And two and a half years ago, we launched our own finance house. This is Velocity Juice and we've introduced a product that was needed in our market, was needed by all companies. The vast majority of the working capital of new brands goes into advertising, marketing, and inventory.
So we wanted to create something a lot more scalable than the traditional kind of venture debt products. And this is exactly what we have done. We have partnered with a very large, multi-billion institutional provider. And last year we tested, and we managed to put quite a bit of capital out there, we backed a few organizations. We can do anything from a hundred thousand to about 8 million. But our product is recyclable. So companies with 5 million or so, were able to draw down anything from five to maybe 20 million in a year. It's very different from anything that you probably would've seen out there.
And I've experienced working for Silicon Valley Bank for a few years. So yeah, it's very exciting. We're quadrupling our budgets this year and we work a lot more and more with private equity companies that wanna be able to sustain long-term activities like tv and sustain an omnichannel strategy, which for brands as well as technology companies addressing consumer markets is becoming harder and harder and more and more expensive. So yeah, I'm very excited to be here.
Diana: I'm glad you mentioned that association with the TV and media funds because I think we'll circle back on that and how basic all three of you actually could potentially support each other, but most importantly support the founders that are raising.
Johnny: My name's Jonathan Clark. I run marketing, sales and business development at a company called Consilience. Consilience is a software company. We have pioneered a technology called Fungible Asset-Backed Security tokens. And we believe this technology will disrupt large parts of the venture investment, private equity and real estate markets amongst other things.
Not being one to do things by halves, we decided that the best way to prove that this works was to start our own VC fund that is powered by our software platform. So three years ago, or nearly four years ago now, we did that and Consilience Ventures was born. Consilience Ventures invests in the seed stage at Deep Tech companies.
We boast quite a strong portfolio and we've co-invested with some of the better-known names in UK venture capital. And the concept around what we do is that through tokenizing part or all of the equity of a portfolio company, you can create a more liquid element of that company.
Much more frictionless and much easier to transact digital representations of that company's equity on our platform than it is to do the company's house filings every time you want to pay an advisor with equity, or you want to pay somebody like a consultant for a specific piece of work with equity. So obviously that has applications in other industries, but that's what we do.
The portfolio is going great and we're currently signing up several venture studios, incubators, accelerators, and funds as we speak.
Diana: We'll circle back on the offering for investors as well, because I think the first model, the fungible asset back model that you are creating for both investors that are raising their funds and I'm sure a lot of them are in the room today, could be of interest as well. Flavia, I wanna go back quickly to you before we delve into both and all of these different models. Maybe let's discuss what kind of changes have we seen in our portfolio companies. I was just reading the latest State of European Tech Report, which came out in December last year, and I think over 80% of the founders that took that survey I mean the whole founder sentiment completely flipped dramatically with 80% of them just saying that look, I find it extremely hard to raise money compared to 12 months.
Just to put things in perspective, this is a report that has been running for five years now and this was the biggest change they've ever seen in founder sentiment. From your portfolio companies, where have you seen the biggest change in terms of stage of growth, but also thinking about the sectors as well? Where do you see the biggest gaps?
Flavia: That's a very tough question. I'll do my very best. Okay. So we've come after a period of booming capital going into anything from SaaS to FinTech, to life sciences during the lockdown and consumer space as well, on the same type of valuations. Last year as you would've seen, it's not necessarily the sentiment for the founders, but capital, there's, you know, last quarter of 2022, it was depressing.
We reverted to a level of 2018. So it was quite a dramatic shift. Also in stages. So early stage always gets more affected than, let's say, a company that already has 10, 20 million in revenue. So naturally, we've seen this I would say vacuum of capital as specific stages, and then consumer space being decimated.
So 70% contraction, which means that if you are a consumer company, being able to bring new skincare or fashion or even a gaming application for consumers, you are finding it a lot difficult, is not just the venture capital, which we have quite a lot of data on, but is the private capital that reigned it in.
So I'm expecting that potentially at the end of the financial year, which is the end of this quarter we're gonna see kind of a flip upwards because usually private capital tends to match, at least in the UK the taxation benefits and the kind of cutoff points. But overall, I think, and it's not just myself, I think there are a lot of people in the industry that see this market for funding equity, funding contracting, which means that if you have something valuable, you have some revenue, you have to think about alternatives and venture debt and several different ranges of products. They're benefiting you. They're releasing the cash early on so that you can continue to do this growth exercise and when the market picks up again, it will you can then be in a market and not be penalized, not have a down ground, which affects the confidence of founders, but affects the team.
Have you ever seen a company that has done a down round that everybody was excited about and made it to a billion-dollar valuation? Probably not. And if you have these like six standard deviations from the normal. This is what's happening in our ecosystem. We are very blessed that, at least in Western Europe, there are quite a lot of funds that are seen on a lot of drought powder.
Probably somewhere around kind of a hundred billion and more and more organizations like ours raising their funds, bringing 20, 30 million, 100 million here and there to bring new products, to help you fund specific elements of your business, and in some cases working capital. So I think that is encouraging, that we're at least geographically in a part of the market in Europe that still has an appetite and a lot of capital that needs to be deployed and needs to produce a return.
Diana: In fact venture debt, out of all the different funding options, it's been growing the most in the last couple of years. And also another thing that I've seen from, and I've heard from different conversations, there's a lot more branch rounds that are happening right now.
Flavia: Maybe it helps if I explain just for everyone that is not aware, what is venture debt. I think, we kind of used the terminology, but many people will know venture debt as a form that is associated with VC investment. Venture debt comes sometimes towards the end of a funding round, starts at kind of series A and B and C and can be quite substantial. Could be anything from like 20% on top of the equity, or it could be a complete departure where we are giving you maybe twice as much capital as opposed to equity. So from that perspective, it's a finance product that fuels growth. So you need to be on a very good growth trajectory to use it. If you have equity rounds, it compliments it very well because you have now your runway and you can do those exercises to build your top line.
So that's venture debt as a product. It's not a term loan like a bank. It's not a program that the government would fund. This is pure return focus.
Diana: I think it's a very specific type of venture that as we discussed, especially in terms of the kind of startups you're looking at, but the way you deploy the money.
Flavia: We're loyal to consumer companies. Companies that have digital distributions. Companies that actually can't have a business without your omnichannel, without doing digital advertising, TV advertising in-store promotions, etc. This is how discovered and eventually end up addicted to products, some more than others.
So that's, that's where we sit in. We are a very, very specific niche. Our market is around kind of 22 billion just here in the UK. Companies that we find on our shelves in supermarkets. And this is, you know, our solution gives them the ability to tap into 10 times their monthly revenues. So that is a complete game changer for the industry. It means that a company with 200,000 in monthly sales can now access a 2 million credit line. So be able to transition from, and I've, I'm more than happy to speak with people interested transition from a 2 million annual revenue to maybe a 10 million in the space of 12 months.
And we work to help companies understand the deployment and have that marketing expertise to be able to do those scaleup exercises, they're very different for consumers as opposed to, let's say a SaaS company or FinTech company.
Diana: So Neville, if all these drastic changes we're seeing them at Late Stage. And Flavia also mentioned the consumer gap in terms of investors.
I think it's predominantly in the UK, and Europe as well. And we know from previous research that in a lot of these late-stage companies, 30, 40% of their marketing spend or their actual budget goes towards marketing spend. Some of them, like Robin Hood, are up to 50%.
In such a market where it's becoming even tougher to fundraise and then half of your money goes into marketing anyway, why should they look at media for equity?
Neville: When we come into play, we are gonna be setting in your cap table. So if you are the CEO of the company, I think it's very important your marketing will cost you 40, 50%. You don't want that sitting in your opex.
I'd rather have, as the CEO, all of this marketing investment that I'm getting to sit in my cap table because it's the risk that, you know, we are taking with the company. And I think that's a very powerful piece of information that the CEO of the company digests easily when we go and show him that product.
And as long as the company is got a run rate, as long as he's got investment to run his product, have a good product - the one thing that most people lack, and I can speak about India because there's such a large market distribution and connecting with people is very difficult. And that's the power that we bring to the table.
And we've seen a significant amount of success. And I want to talk about an example. Amazon had a $5 billion check to win India, and India had a homegrown e-commerce site called Flipkart, which most of you might have heard of. It was competing with Amazon and we invested a hundred million rupees around the time it was a 4 billion valuation, and they needed that investment because they couldn't compete with Amazon, which had a 5 billion check to market Amazon in India reaching out to consumers across all media assets. What it did for Flipkart, it flipped its entire branding campaign. It sort of converted it in.
It not only built the brand per se, but it also got customers. It also built the valuation of the company which Walmart after a couple of years bought for 16 billion, right? So you can see the upside as a media company - what we've achieved. We entered, it was about 4 billion. We walked out at about 16 billion. So the branding does help.
Marketing aggressively does help. So it all depends on where the company is, what's the life cycle of that company, and at what stage it is. And therefore the media for equity is a very powerful tool or product, if I may say so. And we've seen some great success. Flipkart is just one example.
Diana: We have a panel discussion dedicated to media for equity at 4:00 PM and Brand Capital has invested in many other businesses outside of India, including what3words, which will be joining us today. I know we haven't talked about how it works.
We'll discuss that in the afternoon. But basically, the very basic idea is that a media company such as Times Group would exchange the inventory in exchange for equity, but there's so much more other than just that transaction and we'll cover the benefits during the panel discussion: The rise of media capital as a sustainable financing model for startups and media giants. I just wanna quickly cover the Consilience model as well because I know the title said Series A+ companies.
I think what Consilience does, I think that solution, and I like to call like a one-stop-shop solution for any founders that need not only cash but potentially trading for services like media, inside Consilience or software development or any type of expertise for that equity. But I think this is an interesting model specifically for an earlier stage company when you're just getting started, you need maybe your finances in place. You don't have a CMO perhaps in your team and some that cash component. What are the advantages of using Consilience as opposed to, for example, doing directly a media for equity deal or doing an equity deal or raising cash from early-stage investors?
Jonathan: So I think to answer that question, it might be best if I sort of give a little bit of my personal experience. So I dunno if you can tell by the accent, but I'm actually from Liverpool in the northwest of the UK, Liverpool, and I tone it down for events. You know, Liverpool, indeed really the entire north of the UK.
And many of the ecosystems or Techstars ecosystems, the audience members probably have experienced this kind of polarization. The majority of capital and the majority of deals are done in the UK, it's London and the Southeast, and it's probably your capital cities or other kinds of second-tier settlements.
And if you are a founder or even just an entrepreneur, it doesn't even necessarily have to be tech. Trying to grow your business in one of these lesser-served areas, it can be quite hard to know where to go, and where to get that cash. I meet a tremendous amount of founders in the north of the UK and I look at their business and any of us sitting on this stage or in this room would go, oh, that's a B2B SaaS platform.
You could raise some angel investment money. You could get some early-stage VC and you could scale this internationally. But if you said that to the founder, they go, what's an angel? What's B2B SaaS? What's a VC? Therein lies the problem that these underserved communities in particular, like where I've come from and, and built my business in the past, before I joined Consilience, don't have access to the same quality and volume of capital markets.
Being able to join something that is online and creates enhanced liquidity is a big bonus. But what a lot of those areas do have is a lot of goodwill. There are a lot of ecosystem builders, startup communities, and maybe people who work in some kind of small early-stage incubator. They are often cash poor in the context of investment, but they're time rich and they love working with founders to help them build their businesses.
And so you, you're exactly right, Diana, on our platform, you know, we do see a lot of tickets for our seed and series A stage companies asking for, you know, we need a full stack developer, we need an AI developer. But actually, we see a lot of, quite specialist ones as well. So, you know, we've got some real kind of medical deep tech on there.
We got a request for, a cellular metabolic chemist. You know, I'm a geographer by background, so I know soil and rocks, that's about it. But we do, we do get some very specialist requests on there. And the benefit of having a large community, so we've got about 350 vetted, curated members in our Consilience Ventures network who assist these startups, and we keep it difficult to get in deliberately to maintain the quality, the startups and their existing investors and the other investors know that they are getting high-quality service from specialists that have skin in the game because they're being paid through a digital representation of the equity in these companies, not just in that one company, but in the entire portfolio. And so the benefit over just raising some cash, if you can do that in some of these places, is that it's not just a straight exchange, of cash for equity.
I have been burned in the past, just get a website done. So I wouldn't want to spend 5,000 on some of these more specialist services that require labs and cell testing and regulatory licenses not to get the desired result. There's an alignment of incentives arguments that wouldn't depend a lot on what we do as well as just creating what we all believe to be a stronger business case for these companies that are in our portfolio.
Diana: Although it is decentralized, obviously there is a community that governs the network. I know being part of it, how much time it takes to be sort of vetted before you get in. And obviously, there is a committee that looks after the token and the value of that token. And it's been revisited a few times for the past, you know, the last few years.
I think we spoke about this, but what would be interesting perhaps for your audience to know what you are seeing in terms of your portfolio of companies, what do they need most? What is the service that gets traded the most on the platform, apart from, I suppose, probably cash, what other services do they need?
Jonathan: It's no secret that the tech investment market has slowed down since the 2021 boom. What I would say is probably because a lot of our businesses are deep tech and they have these much longer go-to-market periods, but also longer life cycles in general, their growth has kind of maintained a little bit more steady, I would say, than some of the other things in the tech market right now. In terms of what they're asking for, yeah, we, we do get a lot of those niche requests around like, you know, cell biology and organic chemistry advanced mathematics and things like that for the deep tech ones, there's always a huge demand for backend development, Java, Python. There's not a month that goes by that I don't see something related to Python being requested on there. Again, I, you know, I don't want to say that's an observation of the wider market in general.
I think that data's probably a little stew because of the nature of the companies that we've invested in. But it, you know, the, the number of people that come forward from the community to answer these work tickets and the speed at which it's done, and the overall satisfaction of the companies in the portfolio tell me that the model's working.
We have the tokenized part or the token CVDs of the platform get reevaluated, frequently. And we've just under a 3x return in the portfolio over the past 2.5 to three years. And that's even incorporating the slowdown in the tech market and worries about you know, a lot of companies' valuations going lower.
We're really happy with the results of that.
Diana: I think if there's one common ground that we all share here, just from what I'm hearing, it's that kind of service that gets straight, obviously Flavia's model is non-dilutive. But it all kind of circles back to marketing and other levels of support.
And I know we talked about PR essentially being traded and asked for on the platform as well. , which is interesting because I think in this current market, there are a lot of gaps in terms of consumer funding options. We don't have, unfortunately, that many consumer companies here with us in the room, but perhaps some of your portfolio companies are consumer businesses.
Where do you expect, and what's the next trend, in venture capital? Where do we expect to see the biggest changes? What do you see in your portfolio companies right now? What are the biggest changes happening?
Flavia: One part of our group we're seeing like everybody else, once you have done your kind of 50th investment, you probably would've learned quite a few lessons.
So for us, it's about going and helping companies from a particular point where they have some validation of their solution to the next stage when they're virtually in a whole region from your supermarket to online, to whatever media you are accessing, you can find out about that brand, about their products.
And they're continuously innovating. They're continuously bringing more and more products and ranges to the market. What I'm seeing overall in our ecosystem, is a specialism. I think that if we just look at the US a couple of decades ahead of us in terms of numbers, capital deployment, etc., specializing in a specific vertical is the next thing.
In Europe, the very large funds still do agnostic investment, but the more you look at the new GPs, you find that there's a specific part of the market that you're addressing a lot better. You're able to add a lot more value. And similar to ourselves, you're probably thinking about all the different ways in which you can capitalize the company to get it from a million of revenue to 20 of revenue.
For us, it was about this scalable very exciting product - the working capital alongside equity, and I think that this is where our market will go. We are gonna be much smarter in how we deploy and much more reliant on these complementary solutions.
At different stages, there will be different ones. Maybe it's media for equity when the company is already 10, 20 million in revenue, but now needs to get a hundred million in revenue. Maybe it's about trading services and reducing, keeping the operational burn lower so that we can, you know, we can get from seed to series A, which is the biggest loss, right?
More than 50% of companies die somewhere during that period. And then there is the alternative capital -the products, the debt products. And when I joined from Silicon Valley, almost two years ago, there were probably like 10 companies with very similar products, like revenue based.
Now I'm looking at Europe, there're probably more like 40 companies servicing the market with different solutions, some that are unimaginable and I think that's a good thing. That's an extremely good thing. So we're gonna see this product moving from the west to the sort of the rest of Europe and then more funds because they see it works.
That will enable more and more companies irrespective of where they are to get from one point of growth to the next one. I'm an optimist. I think that the recessions and everything is a cycle and you just have to think about capitalization very differently than we have done before.
Equity, equity, equity, equity. There may need to be a different cadence. Equity, debt, equity, debt, equity, debt, media for equity. And hopefully be able to calibrate it in such a way that you're transitioning to the point where the company can, again, be valued and priced externally.
Diana: I think there's no doubt having that mix of funding options makes the company more resilient. And I wanna go back to Neville and hear from you as well.
In terms of media for equity, there are loads of options in the UK, and loads of options in Europe. Not so many options in the US in terms of having a company and we know from portfolio companies that are based here that are trying to, you know, make their way to the US to work with the media for equity fund because it doesn't exist yet.
Where do you see the next big thing happening? What's the next big opportunity in this space?
Neville: So if you see what's happened in the last couple of years, most traditional publishers have given way to Google. If you look at their inventory which they are not able to sell on the digital platform, they would give it at a peanuts rate to Google, and they're very happy because they're getting a check at the end of the month.
And I believe the next big thing probably would be I know that in the US a couple of media houses are doing media for equity in a very small way within their groups, but I believe that it has to have an independent media fund, which will build an alternative stack of different media assets, which will then take on the trio as I call it, which is Google, Facebook, TikTok, and Amazon.
There is a lot of business which is there besides these guys, but the fact remains that traditional publishers are struggling, whether it's a television station, radio station, newspapers, et cetera, and most of them are very happy giving away their inventory to Google for, you know, 10 cents and maybe 2 cents or 3 cents.
When I met some of them, they were a little concerned that their monthly check will not be there. But if they were to go for an independent media for equity model, the chances are they're gonna monetize that inventory at a far higher price through brand advertising through these new companies which are coming.
When you look at the 10k reports of some of these companies like Robinhood, Coinbase, et cetera, they've spent almost 40, 50% towards marketing, and most of that marketing has gone to Facebook and Google, and cost of acquisition on those platforms is very expensive. Going forward, I believe I'd like to see an independent media fund and if publishers get together from different platforms I think it's a formidable challenge which could come into play.
Diana: I think the upside for the publishers is very obvious, and I think for the founders as well. It's not just the pure transaction of media, but when you're going to a market like the US, relatively fragmented, you've got not only the amplified reach that you would get through an independent fund but the support, the expertise in terms of how you're gonna adjust your creatives to that market. How do I do the messaging and the branding in a way that fits with that market?
I know there are examples even here in Europe, and I think Zalando was one of the big examples that were always referenced. The main company that has raised media capital and it went on a formidable journey, but I also know probably not that many people know, unfortunately, when they scale from Germany, trying to go into Austria, which is, we all think it's a relatively similar market.
That campaign didn't work for them. It completely didn't work. I think it got a lot of criticism, unfortunately, and I think a lot of the small things are sometimes overlooked. A lot of the founders and we all start putting money into digital spend and then traditional media is somewhere out there.
Neville: The reality is that Google's getting all its patriots for monetization through digital websites which they don't own. That's the reality. I mean, and you know, most of these websites, it's easy money coming in, right? But they're getting chicken feed money. There is an opportunity, there's an opening up there.
I believe that the next big thing, which can be a pretty good competitor, is to address this problem.
Diana: Jonathan, there are so many things happening at Consilience. I find it very hard to keep up with you guys. I think just last week you started your fundraising campaign on Cedars.
What's next for Consilience and implicitly for your portfolio companies or companies that would like to raise money and services with Consilience?
Jonathan: We are doing an investment round part of which is now live on Seedrs. Don't invest unless you're prepared to lose all your money.
I think I've gotta say that as the disclaimer. You know Seedrs made sense to us because there's a very real tangible business mission to what we do. Ultimately we want to support founders, but we sell, you know, our product is geared at the funds and the asset owners and portfolio managers who are the kind of in between us and the founders.
And the kind of underlying holistic mission of what we're doing is trying to democratize access to private illiquid assets. Why? Because those asset classes, whether it's VC or large commercial real estate, they've performed much better than the asset classes, the regular, you know, what they call retail average Joe and Jane have access to.
And I think that just strikes everyone in the Consilience team as a little bit unfair, you know people can spend their life trying to chase a 4% return in a low-interest rate environment using bonds in their ICER in the UK, but people are making 10x+ more in certain vintages of venture capital funds in different markets.
That's the underlying mission and that's why it kind of made sense to us to add a Seedrs campaign to our seed round. It's because of the nature of what we've done. Not many companies, not many software companies go out and start their venture capital fund to prove that the software works.
We don't look like a traditional company. We're not EISs eligible for people wanting to invest, unfortunately. What's next? We've proved the model works, we are expanding at quite a frightening pace. Yeah, it is very busy and no day is the same. We've got prospective clients in the pipeline, everything from hotels and billion-dollar real estate development in the USA to some very well-known venture studios and accelerators in the Gulf region right the way through to things like more traditional venture funds in Southeast Asia. The unifying traits to all of these customers - they all want to use our fast platform to enhance liquidity, to make their lives easier because it's usually cheaper and quicker and easier to do than the traditional SPV offline legal process for them. But a lot of them are also aligned with the mission of opening up their investor pools to more people and ultimately providing a better service to their clients. Whether those clients are founders, LPs, or other people that they're entrusted with the capital.
We're gonna close off this investment round over the next two to three months. That capital is gonna give us the fuel to achieve a quite significant scale, over the next couple of years.
And just finally, as for the Consilience Ventures portfolio that is going from strength to strength and we're starting to see our portfolio companies now approaching their next investment rounds.
We've got several things in store with Consilience Ventures, not only as a business in terms of how we expand it, increase that network size, add to the quality, potentially add to the portfolio, but also in terms of the product roadmap because compared to when we first launched it three years ago, we've got a lot of experience under our belt now. And so there are some quite exciting features that my colleagues Pierre and Sanko are gonna be unveiling on the product side on that. So look out for those.